1 Topic by reek455 (edited by reek455 September 7, 2009 8:00 pm)

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Topic: Fly Classic Class

Since I was put on the spot at the last race concerning the proposed Fly Classic class for next winter I have been doing some research and some thinking.  Yeah, I know, there I go thinking again, but this is what I have come up with:

Eligible cars:

Ferrari 512S- Any version, long tail (coda lunga), short tail, spyder even the Playboy versions if so desired.
Lola T70
Chevron B19
Chevron B21
Porsche 908/2, 908/3, 908 Flunder
Porsche 917K, 917LH (long tail), 917 Spyder, 917 Flunder?,  Please NO 917-10 CanAm style.
Any other Fly Classic car with the motor pod like the above cars that I may have missed.

To be discussed:
Ford GT40, Ferrari 250LM kit, Porsche Carrera 6.  These cars do not have the motor pod but are correct for the time period.  Let's talk about these.

Modifications:

Minor blueprinting of chassis and body.  ie light sanding for clearance issues.
Stock Fly blackstripe motor.  It is permissable to cut off excess shaft to avoid tire clearance issue.
Stock gear ratio only but changing brands is allowed. Ratio 11t pinion, 36t spur
No magnets of any kind (except in the motor for you smart asses and you know who you are)
Stock wheels at this time but this can be open for discussion
Converting stub axles to straight axles or bushing the stub axles with brass
Spec rear tire to be decided
Lead or brass weights are allowed
No exposed weights.  All weights must be inside chassis.
Any guide flag that does not require extensive chassis modification ie Slot.it for stock guide.
Any brand of braid and lead wire.

That's all for now- let's see some discussion

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

So is the GT40 in or out????

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3 Reply by reek455 (edited by reek455 September 7, 2009 10:18 pm)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Well Bill- That was kind of the point of this whole thing was to find out what people wanted to do with this class.  I have recieved one email and that is it, but it had some separate issues.  By strict definition the GT40 and the 250LM would be out because they don't have the separate motor pod,  but I was afraid the car choices would be somewhat limited so decided to let the people make the decision.  I'm fairly sure the Ford would use the same motor as the others, but I'm not sure about the 250LM as it is quite a bit newer and may have a more powerful motor.  I would like to try a stock GT40/250LM against some of the other cars to get an idea of any performance differences.

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

I also have a Porsche 908/3 "Fast Kit" with a sidewinder chassis. It uses some sort of motor pod setup. Is that the correct setup for the proposed class? Do you think the GT40 would be a superior car? I have a couple GT40s. Both have a silver metal can motor with a black stripe. I saw the message Tim sent, it looks like it went out to everyone.    -----------------------Bill

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Bill- Yes, the 908 is the type of car with the pod.  I have no idea which is superior, too bad you don't have a track to try them on and get an idea of the performance between the two.  I'm just trying to avoid the Slot.it scenario where everyone ends up with an identicle car or where you have to go spend more $ every few weeks to keep up with the Jones'.  If they are fairly equal then I don't see why we couldn't race them.  I will need a couple of box stock car to compare and then let the group make a decision.

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Re: Fly Classic Class

One other topic of interest is the race format to used.  Randy wants to use the SCX GT cars and the Fly cars in the same season.  I see three possible formats-  Half the season with each car, every other race or one heat of each every race night.  Let us know what sounds good to you.  I prefer one of the last two myself.

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

This from Tim Booze:

Rico,

I would like to have the following allowed for the Fly Classic cars next season.

1. Use brass for weight and maybe to stiffen chassis if needed.
2. Use ANY tire for the rear as long as track clearance is observed, and the tire does not stick out past the chassis. (What is the required clearance for the track?)
3. Change out the front tires to ANY brand that fits and stay within the body so as not to stick out.
Fly tires are not known for being that good as far as I have heard.
The front tires on my car wobble, and they are a little too sticky to slide well.
4. I am leaning toward wanting to allow the changing of front and back wheels for the reasons of dependability. I do not like plastic wheels and esp. do not want a rear wheel coming off when I am racing. I don't think everyone would not haft to use them to remain competable if they do not want to spend the money.

My car is stock but does not have a "black stripe" on the motor. Do we need to buy motors that have this on them? Mine has the typical two square vent holes on top.

Are the 908 Can-Am cars allowed as seen below? At least the description on e-Bay calss it a "Can-Am" car.


http://www.naste.org/members/timb/12.jpg

Thanks for getting this going.
TimBa

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Re: Fly Classic Class

And this from Greg Petrolati:

The specified mods are consistent with making the average Fly classic into a "runner".  I do like the idea of including the GT40's and Ferri LMs, It's period consistent for most of the cars (the 2 liter Chevrons I think came along later in the 70s). I have a GT40 that I really would enjoy driving, so there's a bit of self serving going on here. That being said, I'm amenable to whatever the group wants. As far a spec tires I have Supertires on all of my Fly classics except the GT40 which has Indy grips. If we're heading for a tuners race sometime in the future why not leave tire selection up to the participants?

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

Groucho Marx

Greg Petrolati   Lafayette, Oregon

That's not a leak... My car's just marking its territory...

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Rico, Yes, if only I had a brain....errrr track!

Avoiding the negatives of the Slot.It class would be nice. It's nice to see a variety of cars on the track!

Will the races for the next season utilize the stupid pit stop B.S.?

---------------------------Bill

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Re: Fly Classic Class

wb0s wrote:

Will the races for the next season utilize the stupid pit stop B.S.?

---------------------------Bill

I don't know at this time, although I would prefer straight up racing with no BS but the decision is not entirely mine.

Rico

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11 Reply by reek455 (edited by reek455 October 8, 2009 7:25 am)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

OK, after some further research, the GT40 and the 250LM are in.  I finally found a review on the 250LM and it should run fairly close to the Fly Classics.  It might be a little on the slow side according to the reviiew, but the more they raced it the better it got, so in the end it was less than a tenth of asecond per lap slower.

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Rico,

Will all these modifications be allowed?

http://www.homeracingworld.com/fly_fight.htm

George

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Re: Fly Classic Class

George-  Yes, everything outlined in the article is allowed under my original post.

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

I just ran across this email I had received from Greg Petrolati - thought I'd get it on here:

I've been thinking about the Fly race coming up this season. As I thought I understood it the Fly Classic race was to get people used to making performance mods to their cars, hopefully heading towards a builders race at some future date.

Whether this happens or not, I have some suggestions for mods to the base car that will improve performance. Going with lead instead of the magnet is a big help (at least we won't be destroying the car in the first couple of shunts).

I've been fussing with Fly Classic cars for a long time trying to get the most out of them. The most common mod has been to replace the rubber tires in the rear with some form of silicone or urethane tire (Indygrips, Supetires, etc.). Other mods include replacing the standard guide with either a snap in or screw in Slotit universal guide for plastic track and solid axle replacing the front plastic studs that came on these cars originally. The solid axle in the front reduces bounce caused by the wheel studs wobbling in their individual holes. 

Tires, guide and front axle are pretty cheap fixes. The total for everything would be about $10... added to the cost of the car ((especially if you go with 3/32" drill rod instead of a precision ground axle).

YMMV

Greg Petrolati   Lafayette, Oregon

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Still no Can Am cars being allowed?

And as far as the stupid fuel BS.  Let's leave that up to a vote of the racers who show up at the last 2 races.

Racin' Randy

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Here's why I consider it "stupid pit stop B.S."; it serves no purpose, it simulates no realistic action in an actual short duration auto race, it facilitates no actual need or service, therefore in MY OPINION it is stupid pit stop B.S.!!!!................opinions may vary and that is fine!............As I do not attend many BSCC races my opinion is nothing more than MY opinion, I am not casting a vote nor campaigning.    ------------------------Bill

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17 Reply by KuifjePDX (edited by KuifjePDX September 25, 2009 9:24 am)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

I'm in the middle on this issue. Bill's wording of his opinion may be a little strong, but I can see his point.

The way we use the fuel system in the team races this season is nothing more than a forced wait period because it is not tied to car speeds but solely to lap counts. So every 18 laps we have to stop for 10 seconds and continue the race. Fast and slow drivers alike. Since fast drivers rack up laps faster they have to pit sooner.

On the other hand, it depends on where on the fuel gauge the faster driver starts to see if (s)he needs to stop once or twice per heat. Theoretically, the faster driver could clock more laps during the time of the forced pause, so minimizing the number of fueling stops for the faster driver is a valid strategy for a team. That and figuring out how much fuel to take on during the last pit stop in the team's final heat (but this would gain you one lap at most I think).

Assuming that each team can run at least one lap and no more than one and a half lap during the period of the refueling stop, the impact on the total score is small, but we do have some close races so it may be worth it. However, since the races ARE so close, missing laps due to fuel system screw ups (like what happened to Rico's team last Tuesday) have a huge impact. So is it worth the hassle to deal with fuel system errors?

On another note, and this happened on at least on one occasion last Tuesday (maybe more), when you run through the lap counter and the fuel goes to zero but you don't stop the system will not count any more laps until you stop in the pit, take on fuel and continue the race. However, if you run empty in the final seconds of a heat and the race stops before you cross the lap counter again you do get a partial count. This doesn't seem fair to me as not all teams will be in this situation.

Example, during the race a car runs across the dead strip, the lap count goes up by one and the fuel drops to zero. If the car is still at zero fuel the next time it crosses the dead strip (in other words, it didn't stop to refuel) the lap count does NOT go up. But if this scenario happens in the final few seconds of a heat (and people are probably more likely to continue to race when they know they have only a couple of seconds left) and the car makes it all the way past the 8/9 marker on the track it would get almost a full lap added to its total as a partial count. If on the other hand, it makes it all the way across the dead strip again it would NOT get an extra lap added.

So, again, since the races are pretty tight and can be determined by the partials scores, the fuel system may be more hassle for the Tuesday night races than what it COULD add in 'realism'.

For endurance races where we run an hour or more per lane I can see some 'realism' and equalizing benefits of the fuel system, but only if it is tied to the speed of the car rather than based on lap counts although that is also linked to the speed of the car. Or perhaps we should look at car type (I don't know if Randy's system can be set up that way) and take off fuel and play with the tank volume based on the type of car.

After observing what the system did last Tuesday I would recommend we contact the maker of the software and make it so that the Pit-Out sensor can NEVER act as a Pit-In sensor. That seems to cause a reversal of the system and cause of great frustration.

Like Bill, this is just a statement of my observations and opinions, not meant to persuade any of you to think otherwise. It's just meant to make you think... wink

George

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18 Reply by reek455 (edited by reek455 September 24, 2009 4:16 pm)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

During the race on the 8th I got involved in a duel with Randy for the heat win that cost me at least one overall race position maybe two due to the closeness of the results.  The reason- fuel management.  I was concentrating on my race and my teamate was distracted by something else (marsahalling or ?) and I ran out of fuel, losing one to two laps before I figured it out and was able to refuel.  Some would say it adds realism that real drivers have to attend to, but I disagree.  Real racers have teams and team managers to make the decision on when/if to stop.  It was very close to the end of the heat and any real race team would have the option to gamble on having enough fuel to make it to the end.  I had no choice other than to keep not getting laps counted, forcing me to stop and costing me unnecessary laps lost.  That's my reality on fuel management.  I don't think it would take rocket scientist to figure out MY OPINION on fuel management.

Rico

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19 Reply by KuifjePDX (edited by KuifjePDX September 25, 2009 9:24 am)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Tire Specs....? Wheel Specs...?

I see on one website that Super Tires makes silicones for these Fly Classics, including the 917's, but on other sites the same Super Tires do NOT show compatibility with the 917's. If we are allowed to put any type of wheel on this will be a moot point. It appears that both the Super Tires and the Slot-It SIPT17 tires hook up well on Randy's track.

George

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Re: Fly Classic Class

I am against the SuperTires simply because they are such a chore to get profiled.  Fantasy World Tony has recommended IndyGrips #3003.  Let's just go with that one.  It is supposed to fit all the Fly Classics.  I put them on my car and they seem to work fine.

"Big Smooth"

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Eligible cars:

Ferrari 512S- Any version, long tail (coda lunga), short tail, spyder even the Playboy versions if so desired.

Lola T70

Chevron B19

Chevron B21

Porsche 908/2, 908/3, 908 Flunder

Porsche 917K, 917LH (long tail), 917 Spyder, 917 Flunder?,  Please NO 917-10 CanAm

Ford GT-40

Ferrrari 250LM kit

Any other Fly Classic car with the motor pod like the ones listed above.


Modifications:

Minor blueprinting of chassis and body.  ie light sanding for clearance issues. Stock motor pods required.

Stock Fly blackstripe motor.  It is permissable to cut off excess shaft to avoid tire clearance issues. Some motors apparently do not have a black stripe. If a non blackstripe motor is found to be excessively fast then it must be changed to a black stripe motor. One exception is the black endbell motor found in the Ferrari 250LM.

Stock gear ratio only but changing brands is allowed. Ratio 11t pinion, 36t spur

No magnets of any kind (except in the motor for you smart asses and you know who you are)

Stock wheels front and rear

Stock front tires

Spec rear tire- IndyGrips 3003 to fit Fly Classic

Converting stub axles to straight axles or bushing the stub axles with brass

Lead or brass weights are allowed
No exposed weights.  All weights must be inside chassis.

Any guide flag that does not require extensive chassis modification (ie Slot.it for stock guide is ok.)

Any brand of braid and lead wire.

.040 minimum ground clearance


Still open for discussion as people have raised concerns: I think these should be decided by the group.

1) Whether or not aluminum wheels should be allowed.  If we decide to allow aluminum wheels then I think they must use inserts-preferably the correct ones for the car.  One other thing to consider is that the IG3003 may not fit all the aluminum wheels available so then other sizes would be required.  I am not at this time in favor of making this builders choice in this area.  Way too many choices that can lead to the Slot.it syndrome.  Maybe restrict the size to 15 X 10 or 15 X 8 or spec wheel would keep the choices to a minimum.

2) Whether or not to allow non stock gear ratio's.  Stock ratio is 11t pinion and 36t spur. I think the question is do we want to have fun, close racing or try to turn the cars into rocketships where the best engineer wins.

3) It has also been brought up that the stock front tires are less than desirable, but they do sand and can be made to function.  Everyone is in the same boat here and other than some stability in the corners they don't do very much as most of the weight is on the guide. The allowed solid front axle or brass bushings for the stubs cure most of the ills.

4) Minimum/Maximum weight limits or none at all


That's all I have for now.  Maybe a hand out and a short meeting at the next race?

Rico

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Re: Fly Classic Class

I think we should have some weight limits.  I don't know what they should be.  I'm all for a stock gear ration.  Seems simple.  Not sure exactly how we will enforce it though.  Can you remove the rear wheels to replace the Spur gear?

"Big Smooth"

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23 Reply by reek455 (edited by reek455 October 27, 2009 8:35 am)

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Final Rules (for now)


Eligible cars:

Ferrari 512S- Any version, long tail (coda lunga), short tail, spyder even the Playboy versions if so desired.

Lola T70

Chevron B19

Chevron B21

Porsche 908/2, 908/3, 908 Flunder

Porsche 917K, 917LH (long tail), 917 Spyder, 917 Flunder?,  Please NO 917-10 CanAm

Ford GT-40

Ferrrari 250LM kit

Any other Fly Classic car with the motor pod like the ones listed above.


Modifications:

Minor blueprinting of chassis and body.  ie light sanding for clearance issues. Stock motor pods required.

Stock Fly blackstripe motor.  It is permissable to cut off excess shaft to avoid tire clearance issues. Some motors apparently do not have a black stripe. If a non blackstripe motor is found to be excessively fast then it must be changed to a black stripe motor. One exception is the black endbell motor found in the Ferrari 250LM.

Stock gear ratio only but changing brands is allowed. Ratio 11t pinion, 36t spur

No magnets of any kind (except in the motor for you smart asses and you know who you are)

Stock wheels front and rear

Stock front tires

Spec rear tire- IndyGrips 3003 to fit Fly Classic

Converting stub axles to straight axles or bushing the stub axles with brass

Lead or brass weights are allowed
No exposed weights.  All weights must be inside chassis.

Any guide flag that does not require extensive chassis modification (ie Slot.it for stock guide is ok.)

Any brand of braid and lead wire.

.040 minimum ground clearance.

No weight limits max/min.

Cars must retain all stock interior and glass

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Re: Fly Classic Class

Do you need a driver and cockpit? Can this be lexan or must it be the stock cockpit and driver?

If the car has a wing does it have to be in place? If yes, what happens if the wing breaks off? Must it be replaced by the next race, or can it remain off for the duration of the season?

George

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Re: Fly Classic Class

OOOPS- Cars must retain stock interior and glass

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