• From: Hillsboro, OR
  • Registered: June 15, 2008
  • Posts: 1,748

Topic: Ok, it happened again...

After the race last night I thought I'd see what everyone thought about these situations as well as offer my opinions - freely and gladly.   roll

Cars that don't start at the start of a heat

I think cases were the cars don't leave the start line at the start of a heat for a reason other than the car wasn't in the slot is cause for a re-start.  We're not really running for pink slips here and miscues can happen.  In my case last night, my controller failed to work for some so far unknown reason.  Other times it has been someone didn't hook the controller up right, the car was in the wrong lane, someone didn't know they were up and so forth.  I think everyone should get their fair shot.

After they leave the line, anything goes.

Which brings me to the second item:

Cars that stop running during a heat

We've all been there.  A wheel comes off.  A wire comes loose.  A gear strips.  Myriad possibilities here.  I'm not sure the proper answer is to reach into the box for another car.  I think the car you start with should have to be fixed or retired.  And that IS racing.  And car preparation.  As well as luck.  But to reach for another car seems like cheating those that can't or don't feel like affording or bringing multiple cars to an event.  We've all done it, I've never felt good about it.

And my third topic is:

Ties - what to do

Nobody likes them but what's a fair tie-breaker?  Or does there need to be one.  Last night we had a 3-way tie for 4th.  The tie was broken by fast lap time.  Worked well for me but that's just luck.  Might as well time who had the longest off.  We've also had run-offs.  My choice would be to award a tie and give them all the same points.  They all ran the same laps.  The guy with the fastest lap probably had the slowest too.  And of course the average would be...  well, the same.  So I would vote that a tie is a tie.

Next up...

Lane Stickers

How can you not have a lane sticker on your car at the start of a heat?  Someone needs to make a check at the start of a heat.  It can happen for many reasons.  Or worse yet, the wrong colored lane sticker.  Perhaps we need to move away from the timed segment between heats and instead just hit the start button when everyone and everything is ready.

Remember, these are MY opinions.  You are free to differ at any point except here:

Thanks Randy!

Since the junior member of the Stumman team has mostly given up the slot hobby in favor of girls and cars if I remember my teens, Randy is pretty much doing this for us.  It's a nice track and a friendly environment.  It's great to have a nice place to go play on a regular basis.  So I just want to say thanks.  I really appreciate it.

"Big Smooth"

kidvolt's Website

  • reek455
  • reek455
  • Slot Racer Emeritus
  • Offline
  • From: Milwaukie, OR
  • Registered: June 19, 2008
  • Posts: 1,435

Re: Ok, it happened again...

Oh stop, you know you can't remember your teens!!!

Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.

3 Reply by reek455 (edited by reek455 September 16, 2010 9:31 am)

  • reek455
  • reek455
  • Slot Racer Emeritus
  • Offline
  • From: Milwaukie, OR
  • Registered: June 19, 2008
  • Posts: 1,435

Re: Ok, it happened again...

kidvolt wrote:

After the race last night I thought I'd see what everyone thought about these situations as well as offer my opinions - freely and gladly.   roll

Cars that don't start at the start of a heat

I think cases were the cars don't leave the start line at the start of a heat for a reason other than the car wasn't in the slot is cause for a re-start.  We're not really running for pink slips here and miscues can happen.  In my case last night, my controller failed to work for some so far unknown reason.  Other times it has been someone didn't hook the controller up right, the car was in the wrong lane, someone didn't know they were up and so forth.  I think everyone should get their fair shot.

After they leave the line, anything goes.

I have no problem waiting a little longer or restarting the heat, after all it's just for the fun of it.

kidvolt wrote:

Which brings me to the second item:

Cars that stop running during a heat

We've all been there.  A wheel comes off.  A wire comes loose.  A gear strips.  Myriad possibilities here.  I'm not sure the proper answer is to reach into the box for another car.  I think the car you start with should have to be fixed or retired.  And that IS racing.  And car preparation.  As well as luck.  But to reach for another car seems like cheating those that can't or don't feel like affording or bringing multiple cars to an event.  We've all done it, I've never felt good about it.

Like you I have mixed feelings about this topic.  Maybe we could try this approach, minor repairs such a loose wire, wheels etc are to be repaired with whatever time/laps are lost.  If the damage is more permanent such a broken chassis or a smoked motor then a replacement car could be used with a penalty attached, say 20 laps or whatever is agreed upon.

kidvolt wrote:

And my third topic is:

Ties - what to do

Nobody likes them but what's a fair tie-breaker?  Or does there need to be one.  Last night we had a 3-way tie for 4th.  The tie was broken by fast lap time.  Worked well for me but that's just luck.  Might as well time who had the longest off.  We've also had run-offs.  My choice would be to award a tie and give them all the same points.  They all ran the same laps.  The guy with the fastest lap probably had the slowest too.  And of course the average would be...  well, the same.  So I would vote that a tie is a tie.

There are no ties is 1:1 racing that are left unresolved, it is racing and there has to be a winner and a loser.  It is just comes with the territory.

kidvolt wrote:

Next up...

Lane Stickers

How can you not have a lane sticker on your car at the start of a heat?  Someone needs to make a check at the start of a heat.  It can happen for many reasons.  Or worse yet, the wrong colored lane sticker.  Perhaps we need to move away from the timed segment between heats and instead just hit the start button when everyone and everything is ready.

It is kind of rushed most of the time, if we added another 30 seconds betwen rounds it would only add a few minutes to the nights racing, certainly not a deal breaker for me. 

kidvolt wrote:

Thanks Randy!

Since the junior member of the Stumman team has mostly given up the slot hobby in favor of girls and cars if I remember my teens, Randy is pretty much doing this for us.  It's a nice track and a friendly environment.  It's great to have a nice place to go play on a regular basis.  So I just want to say thanks.  I really appreciate it.

I agree wholeheartedly, thank you Randy.

Regards
Rico

Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.
  • Registered: July 11, 2008
  • Posts: 38

Re: Ok, it happened again...

Howdy all, Thanks for the support and kind words.
Guess I ought to put in my 2 cents here. 

Cars that don't start at the beginning of the heat:  It has happened to me too having my car not start at the beginning of the race.   And in real racing there too.  I think you should have your car ready to go and be hooked up.  There is more than enough time setup for making this happen and we have the test track piece to make sure your cars run.  All others are now racing and to have to stop the race and their rhythm because of either mechanical that was not checked or hooking up wrong, or controller problems doesn't seem fair to the other racers.  I agree racing should be for the fun of it, afterall that is my motto.  But when the racing is going at this point, I just feel would not be appropiate to stop again for these reasons.

Cars that stop running during a heat:  I find it kinda funny that in the first section it is stressed that we are just racing for the fun of it and let's restart cause we aren't that serious but if someone's car breaks down we should now be firm and not let them put in a backup car.  Does anyone else see the contradiction?  If we are racing for fun, then let's have fun, and not worry if someone has a back up car.  Otherwise we have to penalize them and that doesn't seem like a lot of fun to me.  Plus, most real race teams have backup cars too.

Tie-Breakers:  I think there has to be determined places.  Real racing doesn't give out ties.  I think a run off is probably not the best way to go, and found I like the fastest lap to determine the tie breakers.  Plus, it would mess up the point totals for the season.  Afterall how can 3 people all end up with the same amount of points for a race? 

Lane Stickers:  I think if you don't have a lane stick on your car you have to stop to put one on.  If it comes off either during racing or handling, it has to be replaced.  If it comes off because someone handling it makes it come off, that's a tough one, but all cars should have lane stickers on them at all times.  I think each racing should be responsible for their own lane stickers, not the track marshalls.  If we start to rely on the track marshalls for car changes and lane stickers, then we are making a volunteer the fall guy sometimes.  That doesn't seem right to me.  Your car, take care of it.  If there is not enough time between heats we can always up it for more time.

Thank you guys:  Without you all we don't have any fun and a club.   I love doing it as a social thing, a friendship thing, and a fun racing thing with grown men and women playing with toy cars.  I really appreciate it when all show up and help out with food and setup and tear down.  It is the people that make it happen.  Thanks for coming out.

Additional Note:  My philosophy has been to simulate real racing in a non-anal way and based on fun, but to try and simulate real racing.  (that's why I like the fuel management).  You can read that philosophy in my responses.  We all have experienced the problems Monte brings up but sometimes we have to just say for the sake of simulating real racing, dem the brakes.  I sure don't want to start nickpicking every thing that someone has a complaint about especially and especially is the key word, if it goes against the philosophy of real racing and "just for the fun of it".  To do otherwise only opens it up to mass confusion and loss of core values.  With that said, I do appreciate additional problematic inputs to help clear up rule changes or race flow problems.  So I appreciate what Monte has brought up and think it should be addressed but along the line of a real racing philosophy only.  That way we keep the core values of the slot car club.  The only other philosophy I operate on (1-simulate real racing, 2- "Just for the fun of it") and now 3- keep it simple and relatively cheap in cost for beginners so we can grow the sport. Those 3 core values are the way I make decisions. If any of the these become in conflict, then the priority is "just for the fun of it" first, simulate real racing 2nd, and cheap and simple 3rd.  But to me, simulating real racing (without being anal about it) is usually how I have more fun, so I could bounce back and forth on those two.
Sorry for the long ramble.

Racin' Randy
Whew my fingers hurt.

Racin' Randy

  • wb0s
  • wb0s
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Vancouver, Washington
  • Registered: June 16, 2008
  • Posts: 5,713

Re: Ok, it happened again...

I know it may not be appropriate for me to wade in on this topic since I don't race at BSCC, but I would like to clarify one thing. Although it is true that "most real race teams have backup cars too" NOWHERE in ANY type of auto racing have I seen or heard where you can replace your entire car after the race has begun, for any reason! In REAL racing you fix the problem, or you are DONE!

I can also see the contradiction in allowing a racer to replace his car if it quits running and not allowing a restart if a car fails to leave the start line of the race. And really, how much of a "rhythm" is a racer actually in before the completion of the first lap????   ---------------Bill

wb0s's Website

  • Registered: July 11, 2008
  • Posts: 38

Re: Ok, it happened again...

Yeah I know that cars can't be changed in the middle of a race and I wasn't very clear.  I meant that race teams have backup cars and during the "course" of the event which lasts over the weekend, if they wreck one of there cars during trials don't they pull out the back up car use that other one?  Now I know one night of racing isn't an event but I am taking some liberties on this so racers can come out and race and have fun and not get frustrated because something happens to their cars.  I want people to race not sit and watch.  If they have the car, I see no reason why they can't use it so they can continue racing.  After all I feel we are competing more on the skill of a driver (since they are basically set up the same) not the car.  Plus, their backup cars are usually not the best ones cause why would they race a crummier car over a better car?  If they don't have a car, then they take the risk if their car breaks.  Their choice.

As far as the car failing to start at the line due to whatever reasons, I can not recall any slot car event stop the race so the person can get it together.  But I have only race here in Portland locally for about 4 years.  Here their cars are tested, inspected, and we have the test strip to ensure things are ok.  Plus, about an hour of practice before hand.  I know for me when I get going, I don't like to stop and most have voiced the same thing whether they are in a groove or not.  It usually takes me a few laps to get in a groove and sometimes by the time the person complains about their situation and someone stops the computer, it has been 3-6 laps.  So yes I am in the groove by this time.  But that is minor compared to the fact that I can't remember a car event has ever stopped the computer when the race starts for this reason.  If it is a track issue, then yes.

All said with respect, kindness, and no offense given or taken.

Racin' Randy

7 Reply by Carrozzeria Petrolati

  • Carrozzeria Petrolati
  • Guest

Re: Ok, it happened again...

racin' randy wrote:

Plus, most real race teams have backup cars too.

Personally, I'm okay with a DNF if my car breaks... I'll be glad to marshal for the rest of the evening.

My experience is in vintage racing. In vintage racing you've got one car. If you break, most of the times, unless you can fix it your weekend is through.

Of course if you're fortunate (read wealthy) enough to have multiple cars, maintained by a hired staff. You can race all weekend long. But you won't have multiple cars in one class rather you will have one car in several classes. In essence you come  from one race and climb into the next car for the next race. I've known racers who have as many as 4 separate cars running in races over the course of one weekend.

The big time professional teams may have a back-up car but my take is if they have 2 cars they'll race 2 cars with 2 drivers which in essence doubles your chances to win. I think F1 require significant penalties if you are forced to use the "backup car" on a given weekend.  How that applies to what we do I dunno.

racin' randy wrote:

Lane Stickers:  If we start to rely on the track marshalls for car changes and lane stickers, then we are making a volunteer the fall guy sometimes.  That doesn't seem right to me.  Your car, take care of it.  If there is not enough time between heats we can always up it for more time.

Now for the lane sticker issue...  Imagine heat 1 is over. All of the cars (or most of them) have stopped at the back of the track. Marshals aren't allowed to change the stickers... I can see 4 guys heading for the back side of the track, climbing over marshals and each other to replace stickers and moving their cars to the next lane... in 3 minutes... or what ever time is decided upon. If that doesn't give you nigthmares, nothing will.

I'm  not having problems with the way things are run... I had a bad week the time before last... that's racing!

Greg

  • wb0s
  • wb0s
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Vancouver, Washington
  • Registered: June 16, 2008
  • Posts: 5,713

Re: Ok, it happened again...

I promise this will be my last post on this topic because I am just not involved and it is really no issue for me. But since the comment was raised regarding restarts and no other races around here use a restart process, I will say that NASTE does and has used restarts on many occasions (i.e. dead car at start or more than half the field crashing in the first turn). If we do call a restart we typically only allow one restart for any heat race.

   I would like to say that one of the things that makes racing slot cars fun for me is the car preparation and the feeling I get when I know my car is ready to race an event, and when the car successfully completes the race without any issues. If I come to the track with two cars, I can guarantee you each car is fully prepared and equally as good! To me that IS a big part of racing! To Randy's credit he pointed out to me that is not his vision or priority for BSCC. I understand and respect that so I have decided to pursue other venues.

   BSCC has a great track to race on, and great people to race with. Randy is an excellent host. I have had a lot of fun racing with BSCC in the past. However it is frustrating for me to come to any race where I am racing a car I prepared myself to compete, and during the course of that event another racer can just throw on another car and continue if he has problems.  To me that is the difference between racing and just playing with slot cars.

    All said with respect, kindness, and no offense given or taken.

  ---------------------------------------Bill

wb0s's Website

9 Reply by Andre (edited by Andre September 18, 2010 8:23 pm)

  • Andre
  • Slot Racer
  • Offline
  • Registered: February 11, 2009
  • Posts: 10

Re: Ok, it happened again...

Just a couple of thoughts based on a lifetime of slot car racing.

1. I think Randy does a great job and his philosophy of keeping it fun, simple and like real racing works well with our group and is trouble free most nights.

2. I actually changed cars in the middle of my last heat this week. Now, I was in last place and finished there, so it didn't make a difference, but it did help me evaluate my car in a race condition (trust me I have a long way to go!). Having said that, I have never, and will never substitute a car in a race where it will make a difference. I think Randy has made that clear to all of us that changing your car while leading or at least competing for a good finish is not acceptable. To me, it's like saying it's OK to double dribble while playing basketball. You could do it, but are you really playing basketball?

3. I personally don't like other people changing my car's lane sticker at the end of each heat. I've raced my whole life where you are responsible for changing your car's lane sticker. During a lane change I like to take care of my car and get it ready for the next heat, including changing the sticker. I know that BSCC doesn't have easy access to the far corners of the track, but I still prefer the marshals  to hand me my car and then I give it back for them to put me in the next lane.

4. I have never seen Randy restart a heat for any reason. I have personally been a victim of my own stupidity (hooking a controller wrong) and a victim of the track (no power), but we go anyways. It's been the same for everyone, no exceptions and as long there aren't any, it's OK with me. Now, in all other racing I have been involved in it is the discretion of the race director and that works well too, as long as ground rules are clear that restarts are only for issues beyond the racer's control (like for example a car gets knocked off the table and can't be found or a marshal damages a car). We could do something similar, but it is up to Randy since he would need to enforce it, and be the judge and jury in each circumstance.

Just my $.02

  • Registered: July 11, 2008
  • Posts: 38

Re: Ok, it happened again...

Good discussion by all.  As I have always said, racing at Marshall Field is an evolutionary process.  Nothing we do is set in concrete if the people coming out want to change it.  I have and always will look at my track as a club track for the people who come out.  So if something doesn't sit well, bring it up, we discuss it and we vote as a group.  Majority wins, not me. 

So we Vote this Tuesday on these issues.  See you all at the races. 
Randy