Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Monte, I like the idea of the track owner/host not racing. I would be good with that. It would give me more time to actually run the race and make it more efficient. However if we race the Shoot Out at Rapid Raceway or The Gorge, and Howie and Bob do not race the minimum 5 series races, the home track advantage is totally eliminated. As much as I would love it if Howie and Bob raced with us more, I know they are both much more committed to their 1/24 racing, and everyone has only so much time to devote to hobbies.

A couple other points; my current plan is for 10 point races next season. That is not counting the Halloween race and digital enduros. That would mean only half the races count towards a racer's final point total. This increases a racer's chance of making the Shoot Out. Reducing the number of our races will also allow racers more time to attend other slot car events with other clubs if they choose to.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

I think what you are saying Bill is very valid. I'm sure no matter what was decided, someone was not going to be happy, but it is YOUR club and you get to make the rules. That's life. Rules are made and changed all the time. Some times they help someone and some times not. We do have a very diverse and good crowd of racers though. It's nice that you're looking at it from all angles and wanting to make as many people happy as you can. smile Your track is still a viable venue for the championship race if Howie and Bob both decline because of conflicts. After all, someone did point out that you don't win very often on your own track. tongue Thanks for clearing up the point races too. I already knew Halloween didn't count as it's just a for fun race with super funny and or scary cars, but glad to know team races won't be included too. Congrats again on almost 20 years of NASTE!

As for Monte and his comparisons, Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!!! big_smile You made me laugh out loud comparing Amanda to John and AJ. *snicker* big_smile A better comparison might have been three people who don't race very much and haven't won on their home track like maybe Diane Bostic, Kelly Locati and Amanda Abbott. big_smile Thanks for the laugh though! I'll have to let her know she was compared to two other VERY GOOD racers and even I haven't had that privilege before. big_smile

Looking forward to seeing you all on Sunday. Best get back to some goodies. Can't bring all leftovers. smile

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Dorothy, I am disappointed you feel the need to assign ownership to our "club". Although I respect and value your opinion, I disagree with you. Based on my history with other slot car groups, it is obvious that NASTE would have much more of a racing oriented focus were it truly MY club. However what I will take ownership of is the NASTE Point Series Championship. I started the series in 1996, and have promoted an organized it for the past 19 years. This racing series is the corner stone of NASTE. It is what NASTE came from. Since its inception NASTE has evolved into more of a social event than an actual slot car racing event. This is not a bad thing, just not what I originally had in mind. Not a direction in which I would have lead a slot car club. The evolution came about through the participants interests and input. The same can be said for rule revisions and changes I have made to MY series. I do my best to make the series appealing to all interested parties. It has come to my attention that not all NASTE members, participants, or whtever you would like to call them are interested in the racing series, let alone the actual race itself. The rule changes I have decided upon for next season (2016) reflect the feedback I have received. With these changes NASTE participants at all levels of interest should find a niche' that fits their interest. As I see it, NASTE is at a crossroads where participants are divided  in areas of primary interest. NASTE has been on its evolutionary journey with course changes influenced by its participants. I will admit I carry some influence in how and what NASTE does and becomes. But I am not the only influence. I would have to say NASTE is as much YOUR club Dorothy as it is mine. Your influence has changed the social aspect of NASTE in a positive way. You have also had more influence on rule revisions and changes in the racing aspect than any other members. I do not want to sound rude or dictorial, but I have tried to hold meetings where participants can provide feedback and take part in the administration responsibilities for NASTE with dismal results. I do what I feel is necessary to keep the NASTE Point Series Championship running.
==========Bill

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

first I want to say  congrats that naste has been around for  19 years... and that when I found them 10 years ago  we raced on two or three tracks.   and now there are several track to race on.
I also like the way naste went a few years back to the iroc format... this is a great way to race..and get people into racing slot cars as  people who might not have the money to get a bunch of slot cars or have room for a track to run on.
there are other clubs and other formats of racing where you can build your own car.   
Plus I think it  makes things pretty equal ... sure there is home track advantage...   I know that after I host a race my track becomes a storage table until about three days before my next race..
after reading through all these posts I had a small aneurysm....
So much to say ...
I don't mind hosting a race and not having my points count toward the points series....  but I still want to race and trade paint..

If you look at all the races that race on a regular basis it seems to me that most everyone seems to finish in close to the same place most of the time and I don't think that will ever change much........ sure there are some off nights for some

so is that why we are breaking it up into three classes?   will we have a points challenge for all three classes with a trophy in each?   is it all about the trophy? is it all about winning?   should we just race everyone together again like we use to?

I really enjoy racing the odd Thursday races and there is not trophy at the end of the season.... but im not sure there is even a season with that......Lol and there is no big prize at the end of it all... we just go and race... have a great time.

I know you cant please everyone but what ever changes  happen with naste I will still be there racing and having a great time.   I want to see naste keep going for another 19 years

"Due to economic cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off"

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Thanks Bryan. As far as next season, there will not be points championships for each division. There will only be one, and racers must elect to participate and pay the $5.00 fee to be included in that series. Prizes or awards are encouraged for the individual novice races, but not mandatory. That will be left up to each track owner to decide.

Right now at this point in time I do not forsee the NASTE Point Series Championship going back to just everyone racing together. That format does not seem to suit everyone.

============Bill

P.S. Sorry about the aneurysm. I can sometimes get wordie!!!

31 (edited by HEADTURNER February 25, 2015 9:26 pm)

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Monte, you said "And one other item to consider for fairness...  The track owner wins most of the time.  ALWAYS!"


That's why some people don't want the championship to be held on an HO track! I wouldn't want it to be at ANY track where the owner has an advantage, but to single out the HO track and racers was unfair.

I'd say let the owners race at their events, but not count in the standings. The only time my track gets used is for our races and I'd be pretty sad if I didn't get to race with everybody on my own track. Running at Bill's in reverse would be a great way to decide a championship.

And as for Bill not winning on his own track, if the stakes were important, we'd see a much more competitive driver emerge, because he can drive slot cars as well as anybody here. tongue

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Thanks Terry. Your idea of the track owner racing his host race but points not being tallied for them is a good suggestion. The host's race could be one of the races thrown out, not counting towards their 5 race total. I think that would be do-able good alternative.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

I do think bills track in the reverse direction would be fine as well...we only did that once quite a while ago.   that would make it pretty even I think if bobs and howies track are not available..
yes terry you are like me... I race on my track for the naste race and usually a day or two before making sure my cars run...and wheels stay on...Lol   then its a place to store crap.

"Due to economic cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off"

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

I uncovered mine Sunday and all 20 cars ran well enough to make me happy. Those Dash-jets are another story though. Covered it back up and probably won't uncover it till the Friday before the race. No fun racing by myself. Nobody to nerf! tongue

35 (edited by reek455 February 25, 2015 10:03 pm)

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

What would not be fair is to not count points for those who host races.  Why penalize someone who takes the time and effort to host a race? Some people are generous to host multiple races while others host none, so with this logic it would be better point wise to not host let alone doing it more than once.  The new rules will negate the issue to a certain extent in that the expert class are the only ones racing for points so the intermediate and novice classes are not affected by the host performing well.  If there are fewer points races next year as has been indicated, not receiving points at any race will be an even larger penalty. Besides most of the experts are more than capable of winning on any track on a given night.

Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

This is a good discussion. Rico's point is also very good. If you look at the example of this race format scenario using last years finish results, it would be a moot point as to whether the races for the track host were counted towrds their score or not. Ultimately those points would likely amount to less than five in regards to their overall total anyway. Especially when you figure 5 of the top seven were race hosts to start with. The race host's wins may have more affect on the racers lower in the points standings, but there is a pretty sharp cut off in points standings at or below the seventh place racer. Whether or not we count race host's points at their own race seems to be irrelevant. It is just like the example of a racer who only shows up for one race during a season and wins. Some would say it is unfair to the regular racers because he has taken points away from them. In reality it only amounts to one point, and he didn't take it away, he earned it. No one would have gotten an extra 20 points if they would not have showed up!

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Ladies and gentlemen: I just read this post, WOW is on my mind. I know for a fact that you will never please everyone.
But I try to please as many as possible.
In the summer which is the off season for Rapid Raceway is when I do my scheduling. If you decide to have the BIG RACE here we can schedule it at that time. I will gladly drink coffee, eat cookies, have a rum ball or two, BS ( the more rum balls, the more BS I do ), run the computer and keep the coffee going and watch the action on the track and basically kick back and not be concerned about competing, in other words, I don't always need to compete to have fun, especially if there is a rum ball or two to be had and a good many racers to BS with.
So the offer is there, if you decide to race elsewhere, that is ok too, just send me a rum ball!!

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Terry, some tracks are unfair because the owners have a good skill level AND a good amount of experience vs their competition.  It's why Bryan wins nearly every race on his track.  It's why I win most of the time here.  Especially since my skill has improved significantly since the early days of Autumn Hills when that was not the case.  You can check the results and do your own skew there.

The goal is to find the most fair track, the one where the owner wins the least amount of time and everyone has some experience and feels comfortable.

Perhaps we should have a vote on which track folks would prefer to use for a one race finale.  But, everyone will need to vote, not just the forum regulars.

As for counting the results of the track owner, as Bill points out, it won't really change much but it may affect how the others feel about it.  Neither do I feel the need for the two wins at home crutch.  Nor do I feel the need to actually be the Champion.  I'm happy to see everyone get their chance.  It's more important to me to show my friends a good time when they come to our house.

You'll note the Sunday Series may have a points leader but there is no champion. 

Fair rules for ALL are my only goal.

"Big Smooth"

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Here's my last 2 bits on this.......maybe.......
Consider the series as it is now. Many times with even two or three races left, it is obvious who the winner is going to be, and sometimes the outcome is already mathmatically decided. It is also possible for a racer to win the championship without ever winning a single race. With this new system the outcome will not be decided until the final race, and there will be seven top racers with a shot. In the new system a racer WILL have to win at least one race to become champion.  In contrast to NASCAR's system, NASTE's new system will make it easier for more people to stay in the hunt. Also in contrast, racers aren't eliminated by a single race's performance leading up to the final race. Will it be more difficult to win the championship? I would say yes. Your performance at that last race will have to be spot on. But isn't that a characteristic of a true champion?

Monte, Bryan, Terry, Rico, Dorothy, and Howie, thank you all for taking part in this discussion. If nothing else, next season should at least be controversial!

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Bill, I'm sorry to disappoint you. You are one of the few people who's opinion I truly value. I only assigned the club to you as I thought it was you who started it and thought you made all the final decisions concerning racing in NASTE. I apologize for my misunderstanding. I have learned a lot about our club, racing in general and about some of the people in our club over the past couple of days. smile Thank you for allowing me to participate, both in racing and this great discussion. I didn't realize I had such an influence on the social aspect of the club and sorry if I sent you off on a different tangent than what you had envisioned for NASTE. I'm not really sure I follow on how I've had influence on rule changes though, unless it's just because I'm a female? I don't follow, but it's okay. I either apologize for that (if it was bad) or want to say I'm happy to have helped (if it was good). smile You've done a marvelous job of keeping things running smoothly over the years and it's been a pleasure to get to know you. Thank you for all you do and have done for us. Thank you can't be said enough to you.

I'm not sure I understand what Rico is saying about hosting a race. I thought that everyone who had a track has been hosting races, so I'm not sure who is hosting none of them. Since only a few of the races are going to count point wise, why would it be better to not host races? You would still get points at other venues even if host points weren't counted, so wouldn't it be better to have as many races as possible to choose from?

I understand about wanting to race on your own track also for races and I also understand about not counting the points for the host on their own races. That kind of seems fair since usually, not always, but usually the host does win on his own track. Bryan wins almost all the time, so that's kind of why I first thought these changes were all about. tongue Even if it is only a one point difference in the totals, that one point could make a difference when it comes down to it. I haven't looked at totals, so I am probably wrong, but it is out there. If someone needs to win ONE race to be in the final, then maybe that one race would be at a place where the host mostly wins and if that race wasn't counted for the host, the second place person would be the winner and it might be their ONLY win. I don't know if that makes sense written, but it did in my head.

Howie~~Thank you for the offer of your track. It's always such a pleasure to race there, but you do realize that I am NOT one of the seven these people are talking about, right? If the final race comes down to racing on your track, I won't be in the final, so won't have a reason to be at the race. If I'm not there, you had better hope that one of the special seven knows how to make rum balls and will share with you. big_smile I will however make sure I have rum balls for the Halloween race if you are graciously hosting that again this year. smile

Thanks for allowing this discussion Bill. It's great to see other views and ideas. Some things I would never have thought of myself. Yes, it might be controversial this season, but at least most everyone seems to keep their tempers in check. I need to work on that myself as things jump out of my mouth before I think about them some times.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Dorothy your influence on the social aspect of NASTE has resulted in nothing but improvements within the group. We have the best photo records of races that we have ever had, not to mention great movie footage! In the area of refreshments and food NASTE is second to none, and attribute a great deal of that success to you and your influence.

One thing to remember about the final race for next season and the Shoot Out for the Championship. Shoot Out day will be an all day event. There will be races held for ALL NASTE racers, not just the top seven in points. My plan for the Shoot Out Race Day includes; trophy dash races for the Novice Division, Intermediate Division, and the Point Series competitors that did not make the top seven.

As far as apologizing to me for your influence in the club's direction as opposed to my vision, I'm sorry but you can't take total responsibility for that one. I did not mean anything negative by my comment, the direction the club has taken is fine. What I meant was if the club truly was MY club, I am quite sure it would be focussed more seriously on the racing aspect of the club activities versus any social activities. The social aspect of the club is something that makes NASTE truly unique and even more fun. I can't and don't take credit for that, that is something the members have accomplished! And YES, it is a GOOD THING!

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Personally, I just want to make the cars go around.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

Being re'tard and all, I took a few minutes to crunch some numbers using this season's point totals. In regards to whether or not we let track owners finish points count on their own tracks, I am planning to let them count. Based on results taken from this season's totals, if it were the end of the season with their top 5 finishes counting towards their season's point total, Bryan would be in first. In either scenario, Bryan would be first. Without his win on his track he is in first by virtue of most wins in a point tie with Terry. With his win on his track counting, he beats Terry by 5 points, with Terry's win on his track counting. The only significant change in the line up would be Rico moving up to the fourth spot from the seventh spot. The top seven would consist of the same top seven no matter how you talley the points. When you start making rules in regards to who derserves points for a win, where do you draw the line. For example; Monte used to own and he built Autumn Hills. Should Rico's and his points not count if either one wins on that track? Victoria and Dorothy are both co-owners of tracks, are they exempt from winning points? What about car owners? We race on tracks where club members supply the cars. If a club member prepares and furnishes cars for the race should they be exempt from winning points? For example when it comes to racing the NASTE '55 Chevy's, I have far more experience racing them than any other member! What about racers that supply controllers for a race? Should they be exempt from winning points if they had the opportunity to race with their own controller?

Now, I'm not saying there could not be a participant bumped out by a point or two based on a track owner's win on his own track. What I am saying is when it comes to determining who the top seven NASTE racers are, regardless of how you stack the points the odds are very good that the top seven are going to be the top seven! The rules are the same for everyone. In addition, I plan to have a more equal schedule of races when it comes to number of races on tracks. I am planning on 10 races for next season, so any possibility of an advantage by winning on your own track is reduced even further. My feeling is this, anybody that makes the top seven deserves to win the championship. Barring very bad luck, the best racer will win the championship no matter how you stack the challenge!

Below is the list of how the season points totals would look if this were the end of the season, with & without track owner wins:

1st Bryan 100 points win wins on his track  -  94 points without the wins on his track. Number of wins breaks tie with Terry.
2nd Terry  95                                               - 94
3rd Tracy  92                                               -92
4th Rico    90                                                - 82 Rico would be 7th without his win on his track counting.
5th Monte 89 1 win breaks tie with Bill          - 87 Monte would be 5th based on points talleyed either way.
6th Bill      89                                               - 89 Bill would be 4th if track owner wins did not count.
7th Goose 83                                              - 83 Goose would be 6th if track owner wins did not count.

So there you have some real stats, no spread sheet report. I'm open to discussion, but I just don't see where it is really gonna matter one way or another. Personally, I like the challenge of trying to beat a racer on his own track! I say let the track owners points count!

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

i agree.  And all of this would be mitigated by all owners hosting the same amount of counting races.  I'm all for that.

"Big Smooth"

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

I'm with Mitch.

Race cars are neither beautiful nor ugly. They become beautiful when they win.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

We're ALL with Mitch!

But it's FUN to have races, and actual races maintain interest in the hobby. Races require some sort of rules and structure. Don't believe me, other than actual race days, how many of you track owners run cars around your track for more than a few minutes?  If you still don't believe me just look at how long practice lasts before a race. It doesn't take long even with 15 or so racers, until the track becomes vacant during practice. Practice gets boring after awhile. Although running cars around the track side by side is fun, if one of the participants is just holding back to keep in step with the other, that's not racing. That is one of two things, it's either practice or playing.

Re: New Championship Rules for 2016

In preparation for the 2016 season I've been reading over the rules and format. I like the way it all looks, and we have tracks scheduled for all but one race on February 21, 2016, which I believe Bryan said he would take. There is one possible exception to that, and that would be if possibly Al Christensen's new track is up and running before then.

Secondly I have been giving the point series format some additional thought. I like the plan to have the top seven in points compete for the championship in the final race. However I think the race winners of the previous races leading up to the shoot out should get some kind of credit for their wins in regards to the shoot out. In the NASCAR series bonus points are awarded for driver's wins. With that in mind I was thinking of some sort of "bonus" system for a racers's wins to be added into the shoot out. Instead of a points system to make the final shoot out race easier to score, racers will receive 1/2 (.5) lap to add to their Shoot Out Race total lap count, for each win they have scored leading up to the Shoot Out. This would provide more incentive for racers to go for the win at each race, and would give them credit for those wins towards the championship. We have 11 races scheduled for the 2016 season. Three of those races are not included in points accumulation, The Halloween race, digital enduro, and the final shoot out. That leaves 8 races to gather points going into the shoot out. A racer's top 5 races count for points towards the championship shoot out.

Racers are only elligible for the 1/2 lap bonuses on non-hosted tracks. In other words, racers can only receive the 1/2 lap bonuses on tracks they do not own and operate.